The Journey to Sustainable Growth and Client Connection with Kayse Gehret
Today we welcome Kayse Gehret, founder of Microdosing for Healing--a podcast about microdosing and how it's transforming lives. Kayse shares her journey of building a community and a business around microdosing, highlighting the value of long-term, sustainable growth over quick wins. With over 900 individuals already served through her programs, she provides insights into her approach, her mission to democratize access to earth medicine, and the powerful impact her podcast has had in expanding her reach.
Kayse also discusses the nuances of running a podcast for business, offering practical tips for those looking to start their own. Kayse opens up about the strategic elements that contributed to her podcast’s success, including working with a skilled team and embracing a long-term perspective. She highlights the significant role that her podcast plays in client conversion and retention, demonstrating how content can nurture relationships and build a loyal, engaged community.
Listen To The Full Episode Here:
What You’ll Learn:
The impact of podcasting on Kayse’s business growth.
Why you should start a podcast with a team.
The importance of having a sustainable podcasting strategy.
How podcasting converts listeners to long-term clients.
Kayse’s plans on expanding her podcast to a global audience.
Practical advice for aspiring podcasters.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
“I would never try to do this alone. Anyone who asks me about having a podcast, that’s the first advice I give them is to get a great team beside you.”
“There’s a lot of misinformation and fear around these practices out there as they move more into the mainstream. So the podcast has been a very valuable way to educate people and speak to people who are scientists, who are guides, who have been working in this space for some time.”
“The podcast was the thing that converted them to become a client. So there’s been tremendous real-time revenue, but I think [...] the podcast is a long tail to me. It’s going to compound over time. And I think that the financial benefits will be the last to come, but they will be significant when they do come.”
Resources:
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Pete Mockaitis: Kayse, welcome!
Kayse Gehret: Hi, so good to be here.
Pete Mockaitis: Well, I'm so excited to be chatting with you here now. It's happening for real. This is the first time we've actually chatted live with each other. Although we've heard a lot of good things about each other behind the scenes. Super. So, so good to have you. Well, could you kick us off by telling us a little bit who are you and what is your business? Orient us a little bit to what you're up to in the world.
Kayse Gehret: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in the healing arts world for almost 30 years now. In the pandemic, like so many, I was forced to make a big pivot. So I switched it up, moved. I had healing arts studios and moved to a virtual program online and created a virtual educational platform, community platform, and then added a podcast about a year ago with you all and it's to bring microdosing practice. So we work with small sub-perceptual amounts of, I particularly work with mushrooms to bring together people around this practice from all over the country.
Pete Mockaitis: Okay. Very cool. So just so folks can follow along healing arts and microdosing. So we have some mushrooms and I'll have a really tiny amount of that mushroom and then that will do something for me and like a healing capacity. Can you, I know we can spend hours talking about this cause that's what you do, but can you orient us a little bit? So like what sort of benefits does this unlock for people and what's your role in making that happen?
Kayse Gehret: Absolutely. I can talk about this all day long. So it has untold benefits for physical, mental, emotional, spiritual development, personal development, relationship development reasons. Most people come for a variety of reasons, but typically there's one thing like they're suffering from depression, anxiety, nervous system conditions, but they're actually, so many benefits can unfold over time with this practice.
Pete Mockaitis: Okay. And it's cool that in this domain, this space, there can be some risks, whether it's with the law or with contaminants or with not taking the right appropriate precautions or amounts. So having some real expertise and some guardrails and some community, it seems like that's just super valuable for folks. That's my impression from the outside looking in. Is that your experience as well?
Kayse Gehret: 100% and really education and information is so, so important right now. When I first started, there wasn't enough information for people to find, and now there's almost too much. There's a lot of misinformation and fear around these practices out there as they move more into the mainstream.
So the podcast has been a very valuable way to educate people and speak to people who are scientists, who are guides, who have been working in the space for some time.
Pete Mockaitis: Yeah, it's cool, and I'm a sucker for the Huberman Lab podcast. And so I know he's made some references to some of these promising trials popping up in science.
And then there's some other traditions are like, yeah, we've known about this for centuries. And here you are kind of working at the intersection of all that stuff.
Kayse Gehret: Yeah, it's really, really exciting because these practices have been around since ancient times and indigenous tradition. It's not a new story, but we're just kind of rediscovering them and now trying to fit them into our modern healing frameworks, which is really, really exciting.
Pete Mockaitis: Okay. Understood. So that's the world that you're playing in. Can you share with us now in terms of from a business perspective, what are your revenue streams? How does your expertise and knowledge in this world turn into revenue for your business?
Kayse Gehret: I love this question. So my great passions, I love healing arts. I love supporting people. And I also love entrepreneurship and business. And it's one of–one of the things I love working with other people in the field to help them because unfortunately, this modern moment, we have a big divide between healing. A lot of healers aren't comfortable as entrepreneurs and in the business world.
So I love kind of weaving those things together and creating new models and systems for the healing arts because so many of our healing arts don't fit naturally into the boxes of corporate America.
Pete Mockaitis: Yeah, understood. So that's really cool that you've merged these things together. And so then in your business, what are the products or service or offers that generate revenue for that business entity?
Kayse Gehret: So for our Microdosing for Healing platform, we have programs and we have a community and we have the podcast. And then I also have a professional program. So our community and our program support individuals from all over the United States. In 2024, we just opened it up internationally so we can accept customers and students from up to 30 countries now.
And then our podcast of course is international and our professional program supports other people, healing artists who wish to become microdosing coaches, guides, or to weave this modality into their existing therapy practices.
Pete Mockaitis: All right. So when you say community, is that sort of like I would purchase a membership and I would get access to some stuff and some people on a sort of a monthly or annual basis?
Kayse Gehret: That's it. Exactly. Yes.
Pete Mockaitis: All right. And a program, is that sort of like an online course or a workshop or like an educational? What is that?
Kayse Gehret: Yes. Our programs are six-week immersions, we call them, and I run those seasonally. They're always capped to an intimate-sized group. It's with me one-on-one and it's a small group experience that is similar to the community but much more focused and much more intimate with a lot more direct access to me and an educational platform. So those we run seasonally and we just completed our 29th cohort of those.
Pete Mockaitis: Okay. And so you said with the pandemic, a lot of that kind of stuff shifted into more of an online zone. Is that right?
Kayse Gehret: 100%. Yep. Prior to the pandemic, I had brick-and-mortar healing art studios with a large team across four different studios in two different counties. So it was a big, significant change, but such a gift to now work with people all over the world.
Pete Mockaitis: That is super cool. All right. So here we are. We understand you got your expertise in the microdosing and healing arts world. We've got some offers, some programs. So how does starting a podcast enter into your thought process?
Kayse Gehret: Well, the podcast was a thought a very long time ago. I love learning, and I love learning, and I love platforming other people and other people's approaches within the same field. But I really wanted to take my time and do it right, do it with a team of people, and do it in a way once I really, really had a clear understanding of my own voice, my own presence in the space, and also who I was working with primarily.
So we did that. And about a year ago, I think we launched the podcast May of 2023. And it was exactly, it was the perfect timing with the perfect team.
Pete Mockaitis: I'm blushing a little bit, Kayse. Thank you. Okay. Well, I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. So you had that view for you wanted to educate, you wanted to platform some key folks.
And I'm also curious, did you have a particular business marketing goal in the mix as well? Or is it all just, “Hey, but just put some good stuff out there and see what happens in the world.”
Kayse Gehret: Yeah, there was a strategy in that I really wanted to build our relationships more deeply. It's so important to reach more people and to put forth voices of people who are working in the space.
That was a big inspiration of me for bringing the podcast to life was as this field became more and more mainstream, a lot of the voices that were being platformed were the scientists, the researchers, the academics, and we weren't hearing a lot from the people who've been doing this work underground sometimes for many, many decades who have so much wisdom to share. And I, the podcast for me, was an opportunity to share those voices as well.
Pete Mockaitis: That's lovely. All right. And so you said you wanted to do it with a team. You knew that from the get-go. Why is that?
Kayse Gehret: Well, when I was researching it, I have a lot of friends who have podcasts. And so I talked with them and they let me interview them about the pros and cons. And what they really impressed upon me, it's far more work than people realize.
Pete Mockaitis: Oh yeah. They just see people talking. Push record. That's it. Right. Right.
Kayse Gehret: There's so much that goes on behind the scenes from the production to the editing, to the strategy, to the marketing. And for myself, it was important to me.
I do have solo episodes, but my podcast is very much about platforming other voices too. So I do a lot of interviews. I do a lot of panel, trio interviews which there's a lot of work when you're interviewing other people versus just like showing up at the mic yourself, a lot of planning and scripting, and I research every guest's background. I try to highlight and present them in the best way. So there's a lot that goes on. So especially if you're a practitioner that still loves directly working with people and has a large community that you're serving at the same time, I really wanted to wait until I could have a team that could bring all that other support to the table. And I've gotten that in spades with you guys. So thank you.
Pete Mockaitis: Thank you. Well, great to hear. Thank you. And absolutely. I think that's, That really rings true and resonates in terms of if you have got a lot of stuff going on already, particularly from a business perspective, if it's kind of high revenue stuff going on already, then it can seem unwise economically and financially to say, you know what? I'm just going to hunker down for six hours with the audio editing software and just really polish this into a beautiful gem.
That's not really a practical or wise choice, even though I personally think it's a lot of fun. It isn't the best move for me and my businesses.
Kayse Gehret: Absolutely. Yep. And as far as the revenue generation, I came into my podcast with the mindset, this is really to nurture my community, to introduce more people, to find more people, to deepen a relationship with my existing community.
It has, though, turned out to be far more of a revenue generator than I had anticipated so.
Pete Mockaitis: Well, that's a beautiful thing.
Kayse Gehret: It is. It is. So it's like, to me, it's kind of icing on the cake, but I find a lot of people, and I know I purchase this way like some people are very fussy. Quick decision makers, right?
They see something presented and they want it. Other people like to case things out for a while, like to get to know someone and to kind of feel them out a while. And so I have a lot of people who kind of come into my world, who find the podcast, who binge the podcast, and then six months later, they'll apply for the program because they feel like they know me and the, it's such a seamless, it doesn't even feel like selling, the conversion happens just so easily because they already feel like they know me to some extent.
Pete Mockaitis: That is beautiful. And it's fun when you–this only happened to me a couple times. I mean, I'm not super famous, but yeah, they say, “Hey, you're Pete Mockaitis.” Or, “Oh, that's how [...] your job?” Like, “Oh, wow.” It's like, well, yes I am. And so it's like they do know you. And I felt the same way as the listeners. “Oh, you're Pat Flynn. I feel like I know you.” It's like, “Oh yeah, thanks. I'm glad you liked the show. People say that to me a lot.” So it's kind of wild, but you do, it's pretty intimate.
It's like you are in their ears, perhaps for hours over months and that's a stronger relationship than many of us have with the folks who are actually in our physical geographic spaces sometimes.
Kayse Gehret: True, true.
Pete Mockaitis: So tell me then, you say you'd like to take your time and learn what's going on with folks. I understand when we were getting started with our founder, Ben, you were taking some time there. Can you tell us a bit about that story?
Kayse Gehret: Oh, yes. I mean, I originally connected with Ben at least a year before we actually launched the podcast. We put that much time into it. And I so appreciated Ben from the start.
He was so authentic and just truthful about how much his takes behind the scenes and where you want your business to be when you start a podcast, a lot of people in business, I've seen this in many times over as sometimes we jump into too much too fast before the business is in the right cycle to introduce a new offering.
And so he was very helpful in strategizing like where I needed to get my platform to when we would be ready for the podcast. So that was really, really valuable advice.
Pete Mockaitis: That does resonate. I've heard of folks used to just assume, “Well, if you get an Oprah, you're just going to be rich.” I was like, “Well, I mean, certain things have to be in place for that to become true in terms of whether it's emails or opt-ins or landing pages or offers or products.”
It's just sort of like there's a missing link or step between exposure, fame, and revenue in terms of like financial benefits. And so are these the kinds of things you mean, meant in terms of platform development prior to podcast? Could you share a bit of the specifics?
Kayse Gehret: Sure. Yeah, I think it was for me, especially working in such a nascent field that people don't know what to make of it yet.
I'm kind of defining and it's being defined ongoing. And so I really wanted to get to a place where I was really solid on who was coming to this practice, who am I speaking to? What are they interested in, and how can I play a role and support this field in this moment? So that took some time to establish, and also to get my business to a place where I knew that my programs were supporting the podcast, right?
Because the podcast was part of an overall strategy. The podcast to me was never the intention to be a moneymaker. I didn't want to have to get sponsors. I didn't want it to sell mattresses halfway through the show. I didn't want to do all that. And I also, a lot of people, I don't think, realize that a lot of other podcasts are kind of like under the traditional journalistic umbrella of pay-to-play, right? And so–
Pete Mockaitis: Oh, like guests pay money to appear on the shows.
Kayse Gehret: Guests pay money to appear on the show, just like they pay money to appear at a conference and get a seat on a stage. A lot of times that's kind of going on behind the scenes for a lot of podcasts, a lot of media altogether. And also times, sometimes people, if something needs to make money, you're choosing guests based on how many followers they have.
You're chasing big names who can bring you so you can leverage their names. I wanted to choose people, I wanted to platform people who no one's ever heard of, right? But people should hear of them. And those are not the kind of people that could pay thousands of dollars to be platformed on a media program.
Pete Mockaitis: Oh, Kayse, I think that's beautiful. And I don't want to cast any shade or judgment anywhere. And I have, I've got some sponsors on my show, although I'm pretty particular. It's like, this is not cool enough for my audience. So, so sorry, we're not going to work here. I don't see how this could help someone to be awesome at their job. So you're not going to work here, but yeah, that pay-to-play thing. I was actually surprised. I think the first time I said, “Hey, I think I got something to say. And I think it might feel great to share it with your people. I think they'd be into it.” I've just got a very naive, idealistic, feeling good. And they're like, “Oh sure. That's 3,500 bucks.” I was like, really?
Kayse Gehret: Same.
Pete Mockaitis: I was like, “Oh, that's not how I roll.” And I didn't realize that a fair number of folks do roll that way. And I think there may even be a law requiring disclosure of that. I'm pretty sure. And I don't know if I've heard that disclosed in your world, but I'm not gonna lawyer up or anything here. So, but yeah, I think that is very beautiful in terms of having that clarity associated with what is the role, what is the purpose, what are we going for here? And then knowing from like an economic perspective, sort of what's required. And so some folks podcast just for the love of it.
They've got a creative desire in their heart and you've got a cool goal of platforming folks who may be, don't get the opportunity. And then others are, they get dollars and cents from day one, and sometimes that's very achievable with pretty small audiences even. And so you're kind of in a fun position of you started with a lot of what sounds like beautiful, noble community building perspectives with just a bit of financial interest, and then you said there was a surprising beneficial icing of revenue. Tell us how this unfolded.
Kayse Gehret: Yeah. I mean, I just started to see more and more and more on my intake forms for my programs, podcast. “How did you hear about us?” “Podcast. I listened to your podcast.” And it was unmistakable. So that's how they were finding me or they found me and then the podcast was the thing that converted them to become a client. So there's been a tremendous real-time revenue, but I think it's one of those things that I look at it very, the podcast is very long tail to me. It's going to compound over time. And I think that the financial benefits will be the last to come, but they will be significant when they do come.
Pete Mockaitis: Certainly. Well, so I'm curious, you say you see it on the intake forms. How did you hear about us? Or why did you choose us? Could you hazard a guess as to roughly what percentage of folks share podcast on your intake form?
Kayse Gehret: Yeah, I would say this year that we're recording this now in 2024, it's been about 50%.
Pete Mockaitis: Hot dog. So, so half of the clients might not be there if the podcast did not exist.
Kayse Gehret: They either find my podcast or a lot of times they hear me on another podcast, which then leads them to my podcast. And then they become a client. Yes.
Pete Mockaitis: And that's what I've been hearing is that the podcast often, from a business cycle perspective, is very rich in the nurturing side of things.
Like, “Oh, Microdosing's kind of cool. Kayse’s kind of cool. Oh, let's check it out.” And then, you know, like 15 hours later, it's like, “Well, Kayse’s like my best friend.”
Kayse Gehret: Right. Right.
Pete Mockaitis: That's good. And apologies. I'm going to jump around a little bit in editors.
Kayse Gehret: Sure.
Pete Mockaitis: The Cashflow Podcasting team will make it all make sense narratively. Because I was excited to hear about the results. Backing up a little bit, could you talk about the experience of getting up and going in terms of working with Ben and company? Any surprises, good or bad, or challenges that you worked through there?
Kayse Gehret: Yes, I love to speak to this. I am so grateful. I'm always grateful for them, but especially in this startup phase because I was still very much in startup mood and my business and have a lot going on. So their help and their support, and they were so understanding and empathetic of that the podcast was not the only thing I was doing, right?
I find a lot of times when you're collaborating in the different pieces and silos of a business, sometimes people lose sight of you have all these other pieces, moving parts going on. So they were so empathetic through that startup phase because there are so many moving parts when you're getting launched.
And more than anything, I would say the strategy and expertise they brought to the process was invaluable because when you're doing it for the first time, you don't know. So they really helped me craft for my audience. You know, “I think it'll be strongest if we launch with three episodes, if we launch at this time, if we spend a lot of time on strategy at the start, that would kind of unfurl over time.”
So, I would never try to do this alone. I don't, anyone who asks me about having a podcast, that's the first advice I give them is to get a great team beside you.
Pete Mockaitis: Yeah, it's funny. You know, I have done it alone and I've done, I've launched this podcast with the whole team. It's like, “Oh, this is so much better.”
Kayse Gehret: Right?
Pete Mockaitis: So much less stress, consternation. I don't know. I should go, “Should I go path A or path B? It's tricky.” Just have those people that they care. You can bounce it off of them. That's great. And I dig your point about compassion and that, yes, there's multiple things going on. And I've heard this in–I interview a lot of authors and sometimes that seems like that's the expectation of their publishers or publicists.
It's like, “Well of course that's the only thing you're doing for the next seven months is promoting your book, right?” It's like, “What? I'm a professor. I kind of have some other duties on my plate here.”
Kayse Gehret: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And they each, having a team, each of them has their own zone of genius. So I had certain things that I could talk to Ben about and Kelly is just an ace when it comes to the production.
She had so much advice with like tweaks and with sound or video or lighting that made a big difference. And Anne, I just love her so much in terms of the strategy and the coaching in terms of the timing and the rollout and little things that we can do to make each episode better has been really helpful.
Pete Mockaitis: Beautiful. Oh, I'm glad to hear it. Well, now let's think about the future. What are the future plans for the business and how do you imagine the podcast can play into that?
Kayse Gehret: Exciting question. Thank you. Well, this is the first year that we are serving 30 other countries. For a long, long time the sticky part, no surprise, was sourcing, you know, and this thing that is it's moving along. Everybody's on different places. Some states are decriminalized. Some places are legalizing. And so the sourcing was the biggest hurdle to overcome. But now that we have done that, we've able to open up in 30 other countries, thanks to more sourcing being available in different countries. We're able to serve such a broader audience. And so as part of the strategy and the podcast, I would love to invite more international guests on from those countries to continue to expand and educate in those areas.
Pete Mockaitis: That is cool and fun. When you're talking to people from totally different countries and then everyone gets to hear them without having to part with a thousand plus dollars and a hefty flight.
Kayse Gehret: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Pete Mockaitis: That's nifty. And I'm curious. Do you have any tips for folks who are considering launching a podcast, considering a podcast in their business or marketing mix? What are the kinds of do's and don'ts or considerations you think that make all the difference?
Kayse Gehret: Have an ace team by your side would be first and my second would be to play the long game, to really think about the long term, like doing this for the long term. I think my friends and colleagues who have done podcasts and learn the hard way. I think at the beginning, it's easy to be really overzealous and say, “I'm going to do a new episode twice a week,” right, and do this, but that's great if, as you said, if you're only doing a podcast and you're only going to be a podcaster, that might be fine. But if you're also juggling a growing business with multiple platforms within that business, doing something that is sustainable and that was a big part of why when we launched the podcast, it was kind of what am I going to be wanting to do in 3 years from now. Not just right now.
And so it's been a really sustainable cadence. We do every other week episodes, which has been really beautiful because it's quite a focus on quality and really curating each episode with a full social media campaign versus just scrambling to try to get more episodes together every month. So that would be my two biggest piece of advice.
Pete Mockaitis: I like that a lot. And anything else you want to share about your experience or the impact of podcasting in your world and business and life?
Kayse Gehret: Thank you. Yeah, it's been unexpectedly a blast in that it's been really fun to interview other people and I love sharing what's going on in our programs in our community, but I also love hearing the insights and approaches from different people doing this work around the world.
It's so beautiful and I've really, some of the people I've interviewed are quite well known. They do this a lot. They speak on a lot of stages, but I've really loved trying to shine a light on them in a different way and kind of share people more about who they are versus kind of just their professional persona. So that has been an unexpectedly fun part of the process.
Pete Mockaitis: It is fun. And what's so cool is that folks are much more keen to talk to you for an hour. If there's going to be an audience also listening as opposed to just one-on-one, that's been my experience. Maybe your community is super generously cool. Has that been your experience with as well?
Kayse Gehret: Yeah. I mean, I figured they talk to me all the time, right?
Pete Mockaitis: Oh, great.
Kayse Gehret: If they want to hear what other people have to say too sometimes, and so it's nice and it just is a nice variety. And the trio episodes were relatively new. I know when we started this, maybe six months ago, we started doing more of them.
And those have been a blast because you can see the energy exchange between multiple guests. So it's really fun and finding common threads and themes with different perspectives. So that's been a blast too is kind of choosing guests that I think that don't know each other, haven't met each other yet, but have a lot to gain from knowing each other, and you can kind of feel that energy in the episode.
Pete Mockaitis: Oh cool. And that's got to feel good to play a part in bringing that about. So fun. Well, your final thoughts about Cashflow Podcasting?
Kayse Gehret: Just gratitude. I just love, I was just this morning was working with Anne on something new that we're launching here pretty soon and working on the podcast strategy to support that new offering.
So yeah, I just can't thank you guys enough and recommend you enough and all the work that you do. So thank you.
Pete Mockaitis: Oh, thank you. Well, Kayse, this has been fun and I hope that Microdosing for Healing continues to grow and flourish and impact lots of people in cool ways. And yeah, thanks for all you do.
Kayse Gehret: Thank you.
Pete Mockaitis: So Kayse, you mentioned about the long-term and the compounding effect of podcasting for business. Can you recap that?
Kayse Gehret: Sure. I mean, I think the way I view it and the way I've seen it play out in my business is not only does it convert, but it converts the right aligned people. Because they come in after listening to me for hours on the podcast, they know me.
They've already made a decision and they're not only more likely to stay with me in this first program, but they are also the people who tend to stay in our community and also purchase subsequent programs and stay in our community and contribute in various ways in the future. So that's why I think podcasting is so different than, and I think more valuable than say like an ad.
When given the choice between where am I going to put my marketing intention and investment, it's always going to be in the organic, long-term play than it is in the short-term conversion because that's, I'm looking for a business that I'm going to run and grow for years to come, not just looking at like conversion for this week.
Pete Mockaitis: Certainly. And when they've already got have a deep relationship with you before giving you a penny, once they do make a given purchase, you project there will be numerous purchases over the course of a long fruitful customer relationship.
Kayse Gehret: Yes. Yeah. Most of my clients, I still regularly work with clients that I had in my original pilot programs in 2020.
Pete Mockaitis: Okay.
Kayse Gehret: Yeah,
Pete Mockaitis: That's good. And it's, yeah, I mean, that really does feel substantial and significant in terms of thinking about four years. I mean, it's not like, so knowing very little about your world of expertise, but it's not like, “Hey, 1. 2 grams of this mushroom. Breathe this way, think these thoughts, do it lying down, and don't drive and we're done.” It's like, “No, we got four years of enriching education going on here.”
Kayse Gehret: Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's really a lifelong relationship and practice that you're cultivating. And so it's so fun and that's why it's so beautiful to see people evolve within the program and into other offerings and into other programs is because someone will come in say four years ago and they want to smoke less pot or they're having migraine headaches and they have these very specific intentions that they're coming in with and after they resolve those, then six months later, they're working on a different intention. Now they want to work on the relationships or now they want to work on their career.
And so it's constantly growing and evolving. And so it really suit healing and long-term efforts in terms of marketing and relationship building really serve and weave together beautifully.
Pete Mockaitis: Okay. Thank you.